Curse

NerfHerder · Jan 28, 2011, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

There is no MM in his team build. With the sheer size of wells, and their long duration, chances are heroes would be standing in a well. Unfortunately, WoB doesn't recharge energy as well as hp, and we need that for dual orders. Also the AI doesn't cast WoB as often as they cast WoP last I tested.

WoB would be a better choice, as Dual ER never has energy issues. However, I VQ'd Dalada uplands w/o rebel yell, with the build I posted, ER Orders and a friend using the communing build. It went really well. My final build will probably look something more like this..

I used Blazing Finale when enemy melee started chasing my backline. With two copies of AoF and Blazing Spear I think its still enough to constitute "ToF" being in the party. I'm even considering adding ::gasp:: a melee hero instead of the Communing Rt for more controlled burning. Even though I would give up some utility and DPS, I get tired of depending on spirits and MMs.

Daesu · Jan 28, 2011, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

WoB would be a better choice, as Dual ER never has energy issues.

I was referring to your necro orders, not your ER. I find that replacing Cultist Fervor (i.e. pvx orders necro elite of choice) with WoP works better for me without a MM, but to each his own.

I Perma Mobs · Jan 30, 2011, 01:30 AM // 01:30

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Alright, here is the more up-to-date build I'm imagining to run. You can see my first post in page 16-17, cant remember which 1 it was.

from top to bottom:
The dagger spam build is the best variation I found. Xenomortis contributed to it by giving suggestions. The optional slot can be nearly anything. FH is nice to spike, BUH! is an incredibly good choice too, because it will ALSO boost Splinter weapons damage, but for it to be really useful it's helpful to trigger the 50% bonus,so it's slightly harder to use as well.
You could also bring PI, an ebon ward, a summon, technobabble, well, anything. Even whirlwind attack works well

. Thats why I like this build, it allows for alot of opportunities.

SoS: I used to run hybrid healer with this, but well, let's be honest: this character can do damage beyond any other I know of in combination with an assassin. Splinter+AR+ deathblossom= a sweet 400-500 with BUH round 550. Yeah.
about the optional:agony or spirit rift is an important question. I prefer agony over spirit rift because of the recharge. Heros spam spirit rift too much, which means they wont use ar and splinter as often (they both do alot more dmg than spirit rift) AND spirit rift screws the energy. Even though a human could easily run spirit rift, heros arent too adept with spirit syphon, which means sometimes theyll not gain the full effect of it (actually wasting energy sometimes). So I prefer Agony.

The SoGM can also be a soul twist. However, I am not very experienced with ST and how heros use it, so SoGM works for me. The optional is another debating skill. I considered anguish, shelter, union and rupture soul.
anguish: lamentation and painful bond assure that enemies are almost always hexed. nice offense. downside: 15 energy and not very durable spirit.
shelter: nice in AoE heavy areas like forgewights level or kathandrax. downside: minions also trigger it, possibly making shelter completely futile. depends on the scenario.
Union: in terms of protection, even better than shelter imo (depends on the area though). Downside: it dies even faster than shelter when minions are present.
Rupture Soul: Nice damage and blind is really helpful against melee heavy areas. Downside: 10 energy, spirit sacrifice, not armor ignoring.

Pick whichever you want. I don't recomend going /mo with 8 smiting because of energy (for strenth of honor) but its always a possibility. Also, if u have any more sugestions on it, gogo

Minion bomber: the elite slot should be either jagged bones or aura of the lich. Personally I prefer JB, but people tell me AoTL is also awesome so who am I to comment? The reasons have been debated in many threads, check em out if you want to know

the second optional: dwaynas sorrow (spec 8+1 SR and put up to 5) is a nice cover enchantment and heals well enough. However, you can also go with another prot. Some would be: Shield of absorption, shielding hands, reversal of fortune, ...

SS: Starting off: SS can be replaced by pain of disenchantment if you want to. This is basically a nuking build which incorporates mirror of disenchant to remove a few annoying enchs like aegis. MoP obviously incredibly useful, double dessecrate I know is contradictory to mirror, but theyre still aoe dmg and I believe are the best choices to take. Make sure to post new ideas though :-)

Healer: This character is needed. Its a main source of anti-pressure that is able to relieve aoe damage quite effectively. Also it makes energy a redundant matter. (note: the reason you dont take a rit primary is cause there are only 2 rit heros) Why icy veins--> I didnt like the idea of having weapon of remedy cancelling splinter weapon (even WoW....) so I decided I could take icy veins instead. Also IV really suits well into the build concept.

Panic: Crowd control, nukes, mistrust, a rupt, hex removal and WNWN for energy. Maybe WNWN can be switched for more dmg (CoP or chaos storm) but I'm an energy freak. Take it as you want it

The monk.... This is not what I had in mind in the first place :P
So, facing the big aoe dmg we face, I thought that burst would be better than WoH. so thats 1. Secondly, p spirit obviously and the signet of rejuvenation is because I prefer it over d-kiss, also seeing how I alrdy have 2 fast charge solo spells (sorry, forgot to update it on the screenshot :S). Then: heavens delight for further aoe heal. healing seed is a MICRO skill and should there fore be cast, just like prot spirit, on YOURSELF when going into a mob. It's the only reason it's there and it really helps out. then double revealed hex for free hex removal (actually 2 energy gain) and leech signet for energy.
About the monk... I know I need the healing from it, but I'm not sure if this is the most effective way to get it. an ER infuser is just too lame and requires too much micro for my liking, and there really are no more necros nor rits. So idk, if you have any other suggestions...

Note: there is no melee boost because the bulk of the damage of the build is done really fast, AR+splinter+agony+mop+dessecrate+lamentation+ 1-2 mistrusts+ unnatural signet well you get the idea. It means your offense wont be necessary. This build set up was designed to spike down the whole mob while theyre still balled up and has been proving to be really effective at it without any sort of melee buff like strength of honor, because compared to the 1k + dmg it does, the 20-40 extra dmg you get from the buff wont matter in the slightest. Spirits and other damage cleans up whatever is left.

Attributes:
14 critical, 13 dagger
16 channeling, 13 spawning power
16 communing, 13 spawning power
16 death magic, 9+1 SR, 9 protective prayers (bloodstained insignia)
14 curses, 8+1 SR, 10 domination
14 SR, 12 restoration
16 domination, 9+1 fast cast, 9+1 inspiration
14 divine favor, 13 healing prayers
weapons:
DoA staves that drop from the darknesses are perfect for all heros except the Minion master. For that 1 I recommend the Staff that drops from The Fury or any other staff with 20% enchantments.

Note: I know that the builds haven't changed dramatically, but it's an update and I think alot of improvements have been made, the sort that completely creates a difference. I'd like to see any suggestions on skills that might work. NOT old discussions like E-surge over panic/AOTL over JB, Burst over WoH. The function of those skills has been explained here or in other posts. Above this, I am especially keen on hearing suggestions to the skills I asked specifically for suggestions (like double dessecrate).
tyvm and hf

NeHoMaR · Jan 30, 2011, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maver1ck87

What Kind of Builds Will you create with 7 Heroes?

Not sure. But I will enjoy this "feature" for sure.

I only could say something; I will be using as many necros as possible (for energy, not Discord, I hate that skill)

Gabs88 · Jan 30, 2011, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Since Dervish update will be coming first, and I actually expect them to do a good job. Im hoping to be able to run something along the lines of a 3 derv frontline \ SoGM \ SoS (me) and 3 Necros. Or perhaps a triple Paragon frontline instead of the dervs if they mess it up. All im sure off is that as long as they keep SoS as the only viable rit PVE build SoGM hero stays for more cowbell.

loopysnoopy · Feb 02, 2011, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Right then fellow Guruer's here is my 2nd go at this 7H thing, this time for my parragon.

I have tested most of these builds at best with what I could the rit is the only 1 that's seems to need a bit more tweaking in my opinion but I'm not sure so here it is

So either rate/debate it or just plain destroy me!!

I'm not too fussed as its supposed to be a fun build for general pve and some hard mode areas.

AndrewSX · Feb 02, 2011, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Just a couple of ideas...

I'm not expert about paras or rangers, so i'll skip the first 4 builds...about the rest:

MM seems ok for me.Maybe you can swap the 2 skills for conditions-hex removal with something else, but is just personal preference(example:dismiss condition for purge and so on...).Same for AotL vs. JB.
I don't like that fire ele. In Hm surely you should change his build. However if you wish to use it i'd consider to swap to earth line for support/utility(eruption, KDs, Wards) or air for mass blind (Bsurge gogo).

The monk...well, the problem is that infuse and heal party could drain quickly health and energy on a hero. That bar works on a human imo. For party heal i'd suggest DH+HD(divine favor cheap part heal) and power drain/leech sig for e-management(not creative, but works).

About the rit...Nice meele support and e-management but....idk.Test it.I'd change gaze however.

Hurtzz · Feb 02, 2011, 06:57 PM // 18:57

This

Life Bringing · Feb 02, 2011, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hurtzz

This

Way too much defense, subpar elites.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 02, 2011, 08:32 PM // 20:32

@loopysnoopy:
Oh boy. Ummm. We'll, I'll point out some of the big stuff:

Paragon 1: "Stand Your Ground!" and "Save Yourselves!" don't stack. Use "SY!". Instead of Blazing Spear, use a skill that either shuts down blocking (Wild Throw) or goes through blocking (Swift Throw) in case you need adrenaline in a pinch.

Paragon 2: This Paragon is going to be useless, IMO. If you really want to use him, he's going to need Cyclone Axe. Burning Shield is going to be pretty useless. Honestly, I'd just make this guy a Searing Flames ele. Same function, just much more effective at it.

Paragon 3: MASSIVE energy issues here. Look up a standard Motigon/Commigon Bar or something. Paragons and Ranger skills don't generally mix very well.

Paragon 4: Energy issues once again. Look up a Motigon Bar. In general for the Paragons, you want a few support skills and a few attack skills on each.

Elementalist: Make this your Searing Flames from above or make it a MindBlast Ele: Mindblast, Fire Attunement, Rodgorts Invocation, Fireball, Prot Spirit, and Aegis are the key skills. As long as an attunement and Glyph of Lesser Energy are present, you really shouldn't run into any energy issues with many Ele bars.

Monk: Monk heroes don't use Glyph properly. Have them use Power Drain/Leech Signet/Waste Not Want Not/Drain Enchantment from the Mesmer line. It's much more effective. Heal Party is going to drain their energy within' moments from the start of the fight. Infuse also isn't the best idea, esp. since he can't quickly restore his health, and neither can anyone on the team. It's hard to tell you what to do instead here. These are pretty much the only heals on the team, and you're not going to stay alive very long in Hardmode.

Necro: Lose Purge Conditions. Usually the MM will have Prot Spirit and Aegis, but they can also carry skills like Mark of Pain and Weaken Armor, Remove Hex and Dwayna's Sorrow, or Splinter Weapon and Ancestor's Rage.

Ritualist: Gaze of Fury is pretty bad. Your orders also has no way of healing itself and will be a constant drain on the monk. Bloodsong is the only spirit that can protect you against sacrifice from Offering of Spirit.

Overall: Your build is lacking major in heals and damage. You have several unconventional builds where a more standard build would accomplish the same goal with tenfold the efficiency. One primary healer and one or two backup healers are generally enough, esp. since you are an Imbagon. You are also going to need massive hex and condition removal to keep your team clean and yourself clean, since you are over 80% of the damage reduction.

I suggest running "They're on Fire!" instead of "Stand Your Ground!". I would add a Searing Flames Ele. I would add a N/Mo Orders/Curse. I would change the Rit to a SoS Bar with Heals. Keep the Minion Master, Prot Spirit/Aegis Style. Run your Imbagon, a Motigon, a Commigon, and an Expel Hexes Paragon. This should hopefully be similar to the build you are running, but much more effective.

Edit: Here you go Loopy. A few choices in there are my own personal preference, but I think it'll serve you well. Also, look up Racway. Racthoh was kind enough to post a very strong physical build for everyone to use.

NerfHerder · Feb 02, 2011, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by loopysnoopy

Right then fellow Guruer's here is my 2nd go at this 7H thing, this time for my parragon.

A more traditional Imbagon will get you more adrenaline gain. However, your build should work good enough. I see none of your Paragons have Agressive Refrain. I dont like AF either, it can let you down at the wrong times. And, it requires microing on heros(or they recast on rc). But if you need an Elite spot for something else, its your best option. Heros will cast Anthem of Flame on recharge in order to maintain AF.

Finale of Restoration is one of the most OP heals in the game, if you have enough shouts. If your taking 4 paragons consider at least 2 copies of it. I would trade your melee paragon for something else. I assume you went this route because you want to use 4 paragons. Regardless, a spear is more than adequate, and even with just a 25% IAS will give you roughly the same DPS as an axe. I dont like Bow wielding Paragons, and I have yet to see one that wasnt laughable. You would have more success at adding daze to your party with a Stunning Strike Paragon over Broad Head Arrow. Unlike most professions, Paragons heros dont abuse other secondaries well. In my experience, they are best at using just Paragon skills.

A Searing Flames Ele with MoR and /Me energy, can help satisfy the burning req for TOF! better and not have the AoE scatter effect of your current Ele.

Your Rt with SoS and Spirit Siphon instead of Gaze and blood renewal to help with the health loss, might also work better. You could also add a blood Necro with splinter, as splinter and orders seem be they only benefit to your group.

Blind can easily shutdown half of your team. And is more prevalent in PvE than it may appear. Consider Foul Feast instead of Purge conditions.

You can probably also get away with a Smite Monk for offensive healing/support, Signet of Removal or Empathic Removal, Divine Healing for a party heal, and /Me for energy. You could also go N/Rt healer for another copy of Splinter Weapon.

loopysnoopy · Feb 02, 2011, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

@loopysnoopy:
Oh boy.

Paragon 1: "Stand Your Ground!" and "Save Yourselves!" don't stack. "

I tend not to spamm thing which don't stack my Build for the imba might not be as strong as other imba builds but it does fine the ele was a last ditch hero and yup I see the point of Energy running out but this is a tweak build as far as I'm concerned I have changed all the builds around I'm still keeping my bow parra as he does his job well but might switch him to ranger primary just to see you never know. For me a parra is great so I was trying to fit as many mad yelling nutters in my build

The rit was the goof ball option as I said not tested properly and orders necro is far better suited to the job + I'm not keen on SoS it seems to me as a waste of an elite skill for me I'd sooner add an elite which will benefit the day instead of protecting the middle group that's what I'm there for.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 02, 2011, 10:36 PM // 22:36

@loopy: Here, I tried to keep as much of your build the same as possible since you seemed less receptive to my other suggestion. The synergy is just... lacking, but this is about the best I could come up with.

loopysnoopy · Feb 03, 2011, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Kaida the Heartless just have to mention one tiny thing epidemic, heroes do not use all to well

and here is a re-buff of the builds which was funky

And the builds I present to you now are most of what I've used with my other accounts heroes the 2nd para heroes is the fresh one which I have tested within HM with the other paragons but they do not have as much fun the res on the necro was just put there as i could not think what else he should have

I'm like a mad man yelling at a wall

Dzjudz · Feb 03, 2011, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Bloodsong is the only spirit that can protect you against sacrifice from Offering of Spirit.

Bloodsong only heals itself with the life-steal, it does not heal the caster like Vampirism.

Hurtzz · Feb 03, 2011, 07:07 AM // 07:07

My teambuild for any Meele Chars i got.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 03, 2011, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Bloodsong only heals itself with the life-steal, it does not heal the caster like Vampirism.

Correct, however, without Bloodsong present, you will lose health when you cast Offering of Spirit. That is what I meant by that statement.

Xenomortis · Feb 03, 2011, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hurtzz

My teambuild for any Meele Chars i got.

http://www7.pic-upload.de/03.02.11/mjv7pa1a579e.jpg

Ok...
First thing I see is a BiP. Generally, as I've said before, you shouldn't have a BiP Nec in your team and I don't think you can every fully justify having one in a hero setup. He also has OoP, which isn't going to work with AoHM. Since AoHM > OoP (and AoHM is easier to run) this is a clear cut choice if you're only going to be bringing one (OoP+EBSoH win beats AoHM but that's a digression).

The RoJ Smiter is not ever going to have energy. Castigation Signet barely works as energy management and with Fallback he's going to be burning his energy pretty fast. Currently the BiP is the only thing holding him up (and the smiter is the only guy the BiP needs to prop up).

Order of Undeath MM bars are very energy intensive. A hero is most likely going to collapse and it's a lot of pressure on your backline to stop this guy from saccing himself to death. The results from this bar over a standard AotL MB bar in the hands of a hero are probably not going to be favourable. Switching to AotL with Bone Minions also frees up slots - for example, you can put Fallback and something else on him and lighten the energy burden on your Smiter, removing the need for BiP.

My only real complaint with your Curser is that he's using SS. He'll tend to put SS on targets you're attacking which means the skill really doesn't do anything. Since you currently lack enchantment removal, Pain of Disenchantment is fine as a replacement because it'll actually achieve something (however small).

The Ineptitude Mesmer I'm not so keen on. I'd look at taking a Rit instead.
The Panic Mesmer is largely fine I suppose, but I find Symbolic Celerity on the signets a little convoluted. Don't use Wastrel's Demise though - it seldom accomplish anything of note and is quite the energy sink on a hero.

Finally, take Spirit Bond over Healing Seed on the ER. Spirit Bond is pretty damn strong in HM; it's drawbacks being short duration and the possibility of it ending early. I don't like Heal Other/Jamai's Gaze, but they more or less work fine. I do like Aegis on ERs though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by loopysnoopy

Kaida the Heartless just have to mention one tiny thing epidemic, heroes do not use all to well

and here is a re-buff of the builds which was funky

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7327/parraway.png

And the builds I present to you now are most of what I've used with my other accounts heroes the 2nd para heroes is the fresh one which I have tested within HM with the other paragons but they do not have as much fun the res on the necro was just put there as i could not think what else he should have

If you replaced the Ele throwing pathetic nukes with a Necromancer that has Order of Pain and Mark of Pain, your setup would be significantly improved.

Dzjudz · Feb 03, 2011, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Correct, however, without Bloodsong present, you will lose health when you cast Offering of Spirit. That is what I meant by that statement.

Ah got it

. Spirit of Fury ftw

.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 03, 2011, 09:16 PM // 21:16

May as well just run SoS with Spirit Siphon instead of OoS. The player wasn't too keen on SoS though, so eh, whatever.